Hi,
I hate to bring this up as I personally like books way too much for my own good but...
...would you ever burn a book? Is there a particular book or books that would be high on your list, even if you wouldn't actually burn one? Here's my story...
I took three books to BRC 2001 and burned them on the night of The Man. I did it to see what it felt like. I was sick for a bit during and after. One or two folks tried to stop me--nobody tried to help me. I don't remember which particular books they were but they were all poorly written, contained offensive material (to me at least), and had no discernable value to anyone who I had offered the books to over the past several years.
Not knowing how to burn a book, I made the mistake that most first timers do. I threw the whole book on the flames of The Man. This didn't work. So, I tore the covers off the other two, ripped their bindings away and threw sections of the remaining two books into the flames as The Man continued his fiery release. Some of the pages whirled into the night sky and I worried that they would become litter somewhere out in the surrounding desert. Later, I took some comfort that maybe some of these pages had ended up lining some of the local mice, hawk, and vinagroon homesteads...
Timbo
I hate to bring this up as I personally like books way too much for my own good but...
...would you ever burn a book? Is there a particular book or books that would be high on your list, even if you wouldn't actually burn one? Here's my story...
I took three books to BRC 2001 and burned them on the night of The Man. I did it to see what it felt like. I was sick for a bit during and after. One or two folks tried to stop me--nobody tried to help me. I don't remember which particular books they were but they were all poorly written, contained offensive material (to me at least), and had no discernable value to anyone who I had offered the books to over the past several years.
Not knowing how to burn a book, I made the mistake that most first timers do. I threw the whole book on the flames of The Man. This didn't work. So, I tore the covers off the other two, ripped their bindings away and threw sections of the remaining two books into the flames as The Man continued his fiery release. Some of the pages whirled into the night sky and I worried that they would become litter somewhere out in the surrounding desert. Later, I took some comfort that maybe some of these pages had ended up lining some of the local mice, hawk, and vinagroon homesteads...
Timbo
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Fri, July 23, 2004 - 11:21 AMI have never burned a book. (What is BRC, by the way? Is it Burning Man?)
I propose we start the bonfire with Mein Kampf, kindled by the entire text of the idiotic Federal Marriage Amendment proposal, move on to an original copy of the Malleus Maleficarum, the pope's last edict condemning homosexuality as evil (but not condemning or even mentioning the church's institutionalized form of child molestation!), and then we can top that off with kiddie porn and anything else that has ever been used to justify blind hate, torture, abuse, slavery, genocide, outright evil, or oppression. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Fri, July 23, 2004 - 2:02 PMhow about none....yup, none.
i know it's cliche, but if i do it, then it gives other people more "justification" in their minds to do the same, but probably to the books i would like.
oh, and yeah---it's Black Rock City, or the city which is burning man. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Fri, July 23, 2004 - 6:46 PMHi Mishka,
I hate to sound like a troll butt...
Are you saying you wouldn't even burn a moldy old paperback copy of QBVII that had been water-logged, semi-pulped, and sun dried for a year? Like maybe to keep warm on a cold winter night or something? There is a finite shelflife to maintaining the vessel of knowledge a book is--at what point is no longer worth not burning?
I admit to having been attached to the idea of not burning any book...before I finally decided to do it. Since then, I've come up with some justifacations that are non- or neo-political depending on how you look at it. Books are recycled just like magazine, etc I believe--I'll start a seperate thread on that right now.
Is there anyone else on this tribe that has actually burned books or thought heavily on the matter?
T -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Wed, January 4, 2006 - 1:56 AMI think burning books is a travesty... no matter what I personally consider to be heinous, vitriol, silly, folly immense or any other word for crap, I think too few people write books, and too few people read to burn even one book....
Let it all stand, and let those with eyes to see, read what they will and make their own choices.
It's all a reflection of life...
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Tue, July 27, 2004 - 11:54 AMits not in a city. Its in the BLACK ROCK DESERT -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 10:34 AMhaley, they BUILD black rock city every year for the burn. yep, it is an actual city, incorporated and everything. they even have a DPW (dept of public works). Merlin works for them. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 11:00 AMDO they have a mayor of said dirt town? -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 11:01 AMit not being that important to me, i don't know. i do know that black rock city is just that, though....a city.
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 6:32 PMActually, they get their own zip code--just found that out yesterday.
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Fri, July 23, 2004 - 7:13 PMHi BonMar,
I'm not sure that I agree with you on burning many of the books you condemn. Or, are you being tonge-in-cheek?
I going to compare the problem of burning books to the problem of keeping torture devices in museums. Is it worth losing the "technology" to obscure the mindset behind it? I have a niggling suspicion that it is bes to keep these devices around for awhile, even if I don't ever want them to be used. Ignorance in the contents of the books you mention is still ignorance, right? -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Fri, July 23, 2004 - 10:13 PMwhat i dispute is your idea of doing it to, what sounds like, prove you can. especially considering you even had to attempt to justify it to yourself by mentioning theyre content of material you found offensive.
if it comes down to a books survival or mine, the point is moot. but to do it to see if i can? or to eliminate what it says? nah.
as for a book which is unreadable? why burn it? burning a book is a statement that you feel its contents are unfit to remain in the world, in essence a protest of its being. why not just throw it away? or get it rebound? or give it to someone who doesn't have something to read? you may consider it unreadable, but there is many a book which i know i personally slavaged from deaths door just to read something. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Sat, July 24, 2004 - 2:56 AMMishka,
I didn't do it to prove I could--you could too and admit as much. I did it to see what it felt like since I had a psychosomatic aversion to doing it. There is a fine, yet subtle difference. However, the effect is the same--I burnt three books I didn't care for. I did it because I felt like doing it. And, because I wanted to know how I would feel if I voluntarily burned them.
I went through school not writing in books, treating them with care, etc. It was a feeling that was denied me because of some sort of rules that I didn't make up. I still buy into these rules but I wanted to experience that feeling. To see what it was like to transgress, up til that point, a personal taboo.
What's your position on recycling books? I personally was shocked to hear that it was being done all the time... I'm thinking you are against that as well based on your comments so far.
I have not reached a firm conclusion about where I lie on the spectrum of how far gone a book has to be before it loses its value or how many copies should be retained to make sure the human voice contained in a book is not extinguised. I do know that books can take on spiritual significance for some people. I certainly have a reverence for them of a sort. That is, I believe they are the voice of their authors ideas, feelings, and therefore a part of a recorded history of some beings existence that goes beyond the realm of physical manipulation as many of think of it.
Well, I really should get some sleep now. I hope whomever reads this is well rested. I just thought of yet another topic which I may post before I go to sleep. Otherwise, I'll lay there thinking about it. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Sat, July 24, 2004 - 7:26 AMI guess what you have been saying is: Ideas Don't Die only Books.
Ideas Don't Die only People? -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Sat, July 24, 2004 - 12:00 PMThe philosophical question of destroying someone elses works interests me. Its a question of anthropological and perhaps spiritual importance.
The reason I have an aversion to burning books is...what if its the last copy, the only one, the last vistage of someone elses effort to communicate with somebody else. I don't know now the moral answer to it and so I try to stay clear of the issue.
Many people are ethically opposed to burning books but what's their morale foundation for it? -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Sat, July 24, 2004 - 12:35 PMYes, I think it is a spiritual/moral/ethical issue. I think it gets to symbology. The book is the idea...just like a flag is the country. The problem starts when you say it is okay to burn 'this' symbol but not 'that' one. Language itself is a symbol too. This word or that word is refers to something else... is acceptable or not? (political correctness, propaganda, etc.). To me, all must be given the same treatment as we must decide what symbol/ideas are important to us, not have someone else tell us. (Essential in a free society.)
This reminds me of one of the crucial legs of Ayn Rand's philosophy called the Law of Identity which (I think I have to get my book out of the attic to get the concise definition... I will post a second reply with that) the gyst/jist (sp?) is that a thing is a certain thing and not something else. All 'arguments'/derivative facts stem from that fact otherwise you cannot have logic of any kind.
So how that goes back to the original issue is that we have accepted that the representative of the thing is like that thing. It doesn't matter to me which way we argue it but then all representative things must be treated equally.
Burning books or flags to some is a symbol of an idea being eliminated. So now I guess I have to decide (in the spirit of the game) which way I want it...
Practically some things need to be burned (remember that traditionally the only way to properly dispose of a flag is to burn it 'ceremoniously') plus there's lots of garbage in the world so I would have to agree that everything and anything could be burned. So practically speaking then I think I don't even have to decide if the symbol is the thing or not as long as I defend the right to burn anything (obviously under the right legal circumstances ...we can't have forest fires, etc.)
Your thoughts? -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Sun, July 25, 2004 - 10:42 AMHere's the part I mentioned about Rand and the Law of Identity:
"Whatever you choose to consider, be it an object, an attribute or an action, the law of identity remains the same. A leaf cannot be a stone at the same time, it cannot be all red and all green at the same time, it cannot be all red and all green at the same time, it cannot freeze and burn at the same time. A is A. Or, if you wish it stated in simpler language: You cannot have your cake and eat it, too."
What I find exciting about this subject at the moment is that this is exactly true in the realm of the mind and for the purposes of rational argument/discussion...but I find it is the goal of the body/spirit to make all one. Restated, it is a kind of enlightenment to 'get' the process that the rock is the leaf is me is everything...holy integration, if you will. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Sun, July 25, 2004 - 1:18 PMAll interesting. I'll respond later when I have some serious time to digest what you've said.
Thanks for digging up that interesting quote too. I really should bone up on Rand!
T -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Wed, August 4, 2004 - 3:54 PMWould I burn a book- hmm- well, I suppose if it was waterlogged, sundried falling apart, missing pages and I knew there were other copies out there- sure-
If I disagreed with its central ideas or found it offensive- no-
because I what offends me is not what offends everyone else and what offends others may be what I love- -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, February 3, 2005 - 3:15 AMHi Kat F,
I completely agree with you that some record should be preserving *every* books contents is a laudable cause. However, should we preserve all the covers? Should all the art work and human intention that went into crafting a book be preserved? Is that a goal and cost that as a society we should bear? Is it worthwhile? That's what I'm now wondering. Its a problem of detritus, not just knowledge.
Certainly, as an ideal, it would be nice to preserve all human works. However, due to space considerations, its difficult to contemplate the magnitude of the undertaking to preserve a copy of every edition of every book ever produced by human hand, let alone ten copies just to be safe. However, it seems to me that its much easier to contemplate the retention of all books in digital format as its very easy to make virtually permanent backup systems of these virtual copies.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, March 24, 2005 - 10:23 PMTo nitpick, but the Law of Identity is attributed to Aristotle. (Some debate exists as to what he actually said, but he gets the credit.) Rand is just restating it in a catchy way, 2500 years later.
Doesn't change anything about your idea of "holy integration," though.
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Tue, July 26, 2005 - 6:09 AMwhat about the Patriot Act? Could we add that?
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 6:33 PM"anything else that has ever been used to justify blind hate, torture, abuse, slavery, genocide, outright evil, or oppression."
Uhhh, if we did that, there wouldn't be any books left, at least no significant ones. Only the mind-numbing books with no power at all would remain.
Seriously, people don't start doing bad things because a book told them to. People use books are part of the justification for the thing they're going to do anyway, but they'd do it even without the book. People have conquered and enslaved whole continents in the name of helping the inhabitants, and they were quite sincere about it.
You think only literate people commit crimes?
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Tue, July 27, 2004 - 11:53 AMThe Old Man and the Sea - Hemmingway. The biggest waste of my time EVER. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Tue, July 27, 2004 - 8:12 PMI read one of his books and I hated it. I wouldn't burn it though, I would just say, here's an example of a sh*tty book. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 11:01 AMYeah Hemmingway=shit. Cant say IM too fond of Anne Rice, Michael Chriton, Robin Cook, Danielle Steele, John Grisham or any of the rest of the supermarket paperback drivel.
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 12:54 PMI can't say I'd burn any books, even those I don't agree with. For instance, I'm not Christian, but I should like to know what was in the books of the bible they burned at the council of Nicea, wouldn't you?
All information is precious. Even if it's not information we particularly care for, to someone else, it might be gold.
And of course, they do say, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. If you destroy a bad book, isn't someone somewhere doomed to rewrite it? -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 12:58 PMCandace M,
That is an amazing thought.
Yes, I think that's right: 'Someone is doomed to re-write it.' That is really good. You have answered the question for me definitively! -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 6:46 PML,
I'm still thinking about what you wrote above a few weeks ago.
I'm not sure I agree with Candice's hypothesis re history doomed to be repeated. Some ideas may only occur once--in which case, its sad to lose them, especially if they might not ever be stumbled across again. Its hard, it not impossible, to prove that one way or the other. It certainly makes it more likely that "bad" ideas will be repeated if you destroy the object that contains that idea without acknowledging the existence of that idea in the first place. For instance, what good does it have to have a moral view if it does not include something that has not yet occurred to you?
Still, as you mentioned above regarding symbology, perhaps its inevitable that lose of information will occur, especially if you want to give individuals the right to destroy whatever symbols they want. (I hope I understood you exposition on that properly...maybe not.)
T -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, July 29, 2004 - 7:47 PMYes, Timbo I think you got what I was saying. That brings up another thought which is that over time the meaning of the symbol changes. There is a constant need to re-define and make fresh symbols for the times. One example of this is how after Gibson's JC movie came out there was a marketing of a nail as a replacement symbol for the cross. To me they are essentially the same, they are the instruments of JC's death. I don't know that it means anything else except that it indicates the 'staleness' of the cross as a symbol of such death. -
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Symbols
Sat, July 31, 2004 - 8:52 AMI think this is the reason I don't like "the Classics." They're so outdated, they have nothing pertinent to share. It becomes simply an interesting window on a particular era.
As for the JC symbolism, if I was JC, I certainly wouldn't want people waving crosses at me! I've always thought the cross was rather gruesome, especially when they hang a bloody, malnurished body from it, barely wrapped in a dirty cloth. (And people complain about violence on TV?!) Least a nail could in some ways be symbollic of carpentry. -
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Re: Symbols
Sat, July 31, 2004 - 10:38 AMI thought it was gruesome too Candace. That is a very good point about the nail and carpentry, I never thought of that.
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Re: Symbols
Mon, August 2, 2004 - 12:26 PMThe works Ibsen and Moliere are considered "classics" but they ABSOLUTELY cover issues which are still very contemporary, such as corporate fraud, pollution, feminism, and social-class discrimination.
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Unsu...
Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Mon, August 9, 2004 - 3:22 AMlmao- this has nothing to do with anything. but when i was around 10- i was facinated by cigarettes and the romanticism of smoking- so my friends and i used to rip pages out of bargin books, roll them, and pretend to smoke... sadly enough- when we reached adulthood- or er- when we found places that would sell cigarettes to us- we became smokers. (i was 11 the other 2 people being christian waited til they were 18)
but uh... as far as actually burning books- it's too symbolic and only really means anything to the people who witness it. I prefer to crucify the writers in amazon reviews... i'm still not very good at doing that though. My reviews always sound like i'm trying to hammer the nail in with a stick of warm butter. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Wed, December 15, 2004 - 2:02 AMAs a librarian I have a rather unique position on this. The Dean of my grad school, one said that's what fireplaces are for -- burning books. Now don't get me wrong, she was a freethinker, anti-censorship. The problem we have at libraries (although I know SF is a special case) is that we need to get rid of materials that are outdate or dangerous to read -- a 1984 book about treatments for AIDS, a children's chemistry book from the 1950's. Libraries and even staff can be held financially responsible if an accident occurs due to outdated books checked out. But concerned citizen do dumpster dives to "return" them to us, so we don't waste their dollars. I hate throwing out a book, if I do it's for the good of the public at large.
With that being said -- love Hemingway, he's my boy. Would so love to collect every copy of The Great Gatsby and burn it. I so despise that book. I've had to read it FIVE times. It's so timesome and boring that I want to slam my head against the wall. Same thing for White Noise -- read it for class -- every 5 minutes ended up throwing it across the room...
Have never weeded either of them since they're considered classics... -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Wed, December 15, 2004 - 10:44 AMSalem's Lot by Stephen King. I remember reading it at my parents place when I was around 14. I was reading in the living room in front of the fire. I remember finishing the book there and thinking that this book was so disturbing, that I really ought to throw it into the fire. I didn't, but WOW.
I get that feeling everytime I read American Psycho, too. The book is just so insane and grueome that throwing it in the fire seems like the smart thing to do. But then i'd have to buy another copy to read it again!
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Tue, January 25, 2005 - 11:55 AM<ack> Won't do it. Can't do it. Yeah, I know of the symbolism of book-burning. When I think of book-burning, only two events pop into my head...
The Library of Alexandria
The Mayan Codices
Sure, both were probably mostly religious drivel, but what parts of it weren't?
<sigh> Please let me finish the time portal in time... -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Tue, January 25, 2005 - 12:28 PMSR,
I think the other major objection in many folks' minds is the history of bookburning and the genicide and massacres that have been associated with it throughout semi-recorded human history. However, it turns out that books are destroyed regularly and we need to come to grips with that; the fact that written knowledge is impermanent unless carefully conserved. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, March 17, 2005 - 5:54 AMDamn. Some of you have given this a lot more thought than I have. And while I had to pause and reflect after reading some of the well thought out philosophical views on this subject, I have to admit it doesn't really matter all that much to me.
I've burned a few books. Just cause they sucked. I was burning trash that day and I tossed them into the burn barrel with the rest of the garbage. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Thu, March 17, 2005 - 9:57 AMI take the viewpoint that concepts behave like organisms, and systems of thought like species, in their attempt to take root in the human mind and perpetuate themselves. Ideas can mutate or become extinct over time, like dinosaurs. Book burning, at least out of ideological motivation, is a means of manipulating the natural evolution of human thought, and for that reason I am generally opposed to it.
Of course books are also burned for reasons of practicality, or otherwise destroyed by poor handling. I have mixed feelings about that too. Books have a value that transcends their content. For example, there is a later edition of Alice in Wonderland that was only distributed on a promotional basis for a span of three years. One run was printed. Because of printing difficulties and and the low anticipated demand, it was never made available for direct purchase. This book was not considered valuable at the time of publication.
Of the original 3000 copies, it is unknown how many actually made it into the hands of readers. Children's books have a much higher probability of wear and tear over the years than other books. Today, less than 30 copies are known to exist; of those, very few in good or better condition. To a collector or completist, curating editions like these is like preserving an endangered species that cannot replenish itself. For these reasons, there are a lot of books that I dislike, but would hesitate to burn.
That being said, I believe that paperbacks were designed to be cheap and disposable, like magazines. I don't have as much of an attachment or problem with the idea of burning them. It is my opinion that if the author or publisher had intended for the book to last more than a couple of decades, they would have put more effort and care into binding and production. There are some nicely bound paperbacks coming out nowdays and I don't know what to make of those, they mostly just make me mad. -
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Re: Which book(s) would you burn?
Fri, March 18, 2005 - 8:12 AMAh, but the author is often not the publisher and the publisher as often as not will have little interest in the actual content of the book except as to its value as a commercial property. Thus, depending on publishers to care about the longevity of a book's life is not necessarily a dependable way of measuring the intellectual value of a random book. Not to throw aspersion on those publishers that seek out great and useful and noteworthy books to be published in nice hardbound editions. No, just a warning that not all publishers give a crap about what they print out as long as they make some money in feeding our biblophile habits while the editors suffer, suffer, suffer.
In fact, I'll bet there has been an editor or two who has gladly taken a book and burned it.
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